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SHAKSPER 2007: SHAKSPER Roundtable: Presentism
From: Hardy M. Cook (editor@shaksper.net) Date: 03/01/07
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 18.0170 Thursdays, 1 March 2007 From: Hugh Grady <hughgrady@comcast.net> Date: Saturday, 24 Feb 2007 17:29:17 -0500 Subject: SHAKSPER Roundtable: Presentism This week's Roundtable includes eight posts: brief comments from new contributors Edmund Taft (on the "newness" question) and Linda Charnes (on definitions and labels), and a longer ones from new contributors Alan Dessen (from the point of view of a theatrical historian trying to discover stage practices of past theaters) and from Neema Parvini (who challenges Presentist critics and others to undertake a renewed interest in theory by questioning many of the assumptions inherited by critics from the writings of Foucault and Althusser. In addition previous contributor Michael Luskin takes up in detail the issue about historically "authentic" musical performances while Larry Weiss, Louis Swilley, and Hardy Cook revisit issues discussed in previous Roundtables-problems of using critical labels (Weiss and Cook), and the issue of "timeless" moral content in great works of art (Swilley). Your moderator feels he has had his say in plus and overplus over the last few weeks and happily will yield the floor to the many readers of these posts who might wish to respond to them. Therefore, I am omitting this week a commentary (except for two factual notes on the posts by Taft and Luskin) in the hope of bringing forth more from readers. I ask only that contributors adhere to norms of ordinary civility and to have a point (or points) expressed clearly. -Hugh Grady [1]+++++++++++++++ From: Neema Parvini <N.Parvini@rhul.ac.uk> I have read the contributions thus far with great interest. I am happy that Hugh Grady recognizes that new historicism's and cultural materialism's attempts to theorize themselves have been 'suspended' leading to the 'intellectual stagnation' of their respective critical practices. Indeed, I would argue that there is much theoretical work to be done, especially in relation to how theory has been applied in new historicist and cultural materialist methodology to date. Whilst I can understand 'Presentism's' reticence to oppose historicism completely, it surely has an obligation to question methodological assumptions that currently dominate literary studies. I am not only referring to the importance of establishing a workable theory of aesthetics, as Cary DiPietro has argued for, but also to the now unspoken acceptance of Foucault's Power/ Knowledge model as the limit of our theoretical development. In the 1980s, attacks from the likes of Edward Pechter and Frank Lentriccha questioned Foucault's assumptions and methodology. Although these attacks were, in the main, ideologically or politically motivated, they still had value in demanding that new historicists and cultural materialists should work critically, with theoretical rigour. It appears that now, dissident voices such as these have faded rather than been answered. Deep lying concerns - about, for example, the ramifications of employing an overwhelmingly synchronic methodology that effectively flat-lines historical moments, a residue of structuralism that can be traced back to Althusser - have never been properly examined in the way that one would expect. The problems of the 'power-containment' model that dominated much of the early debates surrounding new historicism are in many ways a product of working within structuralist assumptions. Whilst Foucault divests himself of the theoretical baggage associated with the term 'ideology' by replacing it with 'power', he never moves beyond Althusser's view of society as a monolithic totality. When it comes to incorporating these assumptions into critical practice, the critic is suddenly able to make connections between cultural artefacts that do not necessarily exist. It seems to me to be a mistake to suggest that every aspect of a given culture necessarily has an impact on every other aspect of that culture. This is especially so when working within the necessary but none the less, still artificial, periodizations that Fredric Jameson has stressed. Some of the linkages, sometimes ranging across different decades and countries, even continents, that Stephen Greenblatt makes, whilst masterful and fascinating, are only enabled by this overriding synchronicity. Without it the links begin to look more forced, even arbitrary. I am not suggesting that Foucault and Althusser don't have their uses, just that it remains a contradiction that whilst new historicists and cultural materialists would probably sneer at the suggestion that they were structuralists (emerging, as they did, out of an opposition to formalist approaches to literature) their dominant methodology is, ironically, rooted in structuralism. I think that this is partially down to the 'institutionalization and popularization' that Grady speaks of, as a brand of criticism becomes more popular it becomes less and less necessary to justify the terms of its practice, let alone question them. 'Presentism' should not fall into the trap of opposing new historicism/ cultural materialism on the issue of recognising the formative nature of our present ideology but then replicating their problems in its methodology. [2]+++++++++++++++ From: Edmund Taft <taft@marshall.edu> Concerning the "newness" of "Presentism," it's instructive to remember that shortly after the start of the 1900's, Collingwood and Croce, two historians, put forth the theory that the best historians can ever do is construct a model of the past, based on evidence interpreted from the vantage point of the present. Sounds a lot like "Presentism" to me. Ed Taft Moderator's Note: Thanks to Ed Taft for adding Collingwood to my discussion of Croce as a previous theorist of Presentism last week. [3]+++++++++++++++ From: Michael B. Luskin <Luskin@aol.com> I can't imagine how I in the middle of this, but, as Macbeth more or less said, I am in ink stepped in so far that should I write no more . . . I know a bit more about music performance than I do about Shakespeare, so I found David Lindley's comments thought provoking. But there are several differences between the questions of early music performance and questions of presentism. First, the question of access. Relatively few actually read Mozart's scores, and discuss musical ideas, whatever that might mean, but many, if not most, people read Shakespeare's plays, and talk the ideas, etc. To say nothing of the meaning! The debates about using early instruments and early music standards deal almost entirely with performance, not ultimate understanding. I must mention pitch. Every now and then, we discover in an old document or letter commenting on a performance, someone mentioning amusedly that a particular note made a chandelier, window, or other object sound sympathetically. (I remember at a performance by the Guarneri String Quartet, playing a movement ending on a D, while at the same time, a police siren outside hit the same note. Everybody laughed.) From this, assuming we still have the chandelier, window, or whatever, we are able to infer standards of tuning and pitch. It turns out that in general we tune, roughly, a half-tone sharper today than Mozart did. There are hundreds of old instruments still extant, lots of organs, which demonstrate pitch, which also illustrate that our standard of pitch is sharper by about half-tone than Mozart's. What makes this so interesting is that two hundred years ago, certain keys were associated with certain emotions or ideas. For instance, the key of A might have been associated, maybe, with sadness, but the key of A sharp might have been associated with happiness. So playing a piece written two hundred years ago, with modern tuning, might be in a key with exactly the opposite meaning than it was composed with. But, as students of harmony would say, that is a technical issue. A rite of passage for students taking what one might call Music 102 is, sitting at the piano, taking a piece of music written in one key and transposing it to another. For a thousand laughs, listen to a student string quartet doing the same thing with a late Beethoven string quartet. I guarantee that you will not do it again unless someone is paying you. Music is a different art. The ideas in music are more abstract than the ideas in literature, there is usually, Strauss notwithstanding, little or no distinct poem to the tone. A play has plot, characters, etc. And musical ideas are not as intellectually nuanced as written ideas. I wonder if the Wagnerian notion of leitmotif has any parallel to historicist contexts. Without doubt, the cruelest and ugliest thing ever done by an artist to another was done by Bartok to Shostakovich. In the coda of the Concerto for Orchestra, Bartok quotes a few bars of a Shostakovich work and then gives a musical belly laugh. Sitting in New York, Bartok could easily afford to do that. Sitting in Moscow, waiting as he often did, for the midnight knock on the door, Shostakovich knew the true value, in more than one sense, of the trite Soviet realist music that he hoped would keep him and his family out of an Arctic slave labor camp. That is all you need to know about historicism. I am not sure of the parallel, but I think you could argue that instrumentation, orchestration, harmony, (early) music performance standards, the devices of music, are more or less parallel to poetic form, vocabulary, etc., in a play. It would be difficult to look at a Mozart score and see 1770 in it, except technically, one would not expect Moussorgskian harmonies in it. While 1600 is all over Shakespeare. While writing this, I read Larry Weiss' report of an exchange with Greenblatt at Davidson, discussing a reference to the Gunpowder plot in Macbeth. Finally, the following is tantalizing, but how I wish that authors would give web accessible addresses: Anyone interested might, for example, start with Kiernan Ryan's bracing presentist reading of _Troilus and Cressida_ in _Presentist Shakespeares_ and compare it with some earlier (old or new) historicist essay, like, say, Eric Mallin's excellent new historicist essay on the same play "Emulous Factions and the Collapse of Chivalry," in _Representations_ 29 (Winter 1990): 145-79 (the essay was recontextualized in Mallin's book _Inscribing the Time_). Mbl Moderator's Note: The world of English studies is still not always at our fingertips, alas. _Representations_ is available, I believe, through many college libraries' electronic subscriptions, but the new work _Presentist Shakespeares_ is still only available in bookstores and libraries. After all, the piper must be paid. [4]+++++++++++++++ From: Larry Weiss <larry@lweiss.net> Date: Monday, 19 Feb 2007 15:12:27 -0500 Subject: 18.0157 SHAKSPER Roundtable: Presentism Comment: Re: SHK 18.0157 SHAKSPER Roundtable: Presentism It is, of course, the role of the Roundtable moderator to synthesize the participants' contributions. So it is with some trepidation, but no intent to tread on Prof. Grady's toes, that I venture to say that much of what he, Michael Luskin, Louis Swilley and I have said make similar points. Where Prof. Grady and I differ is in his faith in the utility of labels and my skepticism about whether they help or hinder a discourse. He sums up his position in this regard by saying: [T]here is the issue of rhetorical effectiveness to deal with. Labels can be reductive, but they can also be useful. We have to make judgments for each particular case. I and others began using the label "presentist" because we had a point to make about the current direction of Shakespeare studies, and the use of this label seemed a good way to start raising the issue. I hope it is clear how complex the issues behind critical methodology are and how a label can hide the complexities. But in the give and take of critical discourse, I don't see how we can do without them. True enough that labels can be useful; but they can also be mischievous. One way they are, as Prof. Grady points out, is in their tendency to conceal the complexities. Another way, as I shall show, is that they create new and unnecessary complexities. Finally, I will try to answer Prof. Grady's implicit question about how we can do without them. Labels as rhetorical constructs have vitality beyond their descriptive function. If they were merely descriptive, and if the descriptions were accurate, they would be unobjectionable. The problem is that they tend to canalize thought and distort the subject material in the process. I hope that is not what Prof. Grady had in mind when he refereed to their "rhetorical effectiveness." As a lawyer, I have a fairly good grasp of what makes something effective rhetorically, and it is frequently not the accuracy, logic or coherence of the argument. But more specifically with respect to labels: Every lawyer is familiar with the mischief that can be done when we try to shoehorn facts into doctrinal rubrics which were not originally designed to cover them. There is a famous case in England of a man who was injured by a safe which fell out of a loft. He was unable to identify any act or omission by the loft owner that caused the safe to fall, so under traditional notions of what is required to prove negligence he would have been out of court. The court, however, concluded that safes do not ordinarily fall out of lofts without someone having done something careless; in other words, the jury might infer negligence from the occurrence as the thing speaks for itself. However, the judge who wrote the opinion wanted to show off his classical learning, so, instead of just expressing the result in words similar to those I just used, he employed the Latin term "res ipsa loquitur." Voilá, a brand new legal concept having its own special rules and an evolving jurisprudence all its own. A similar development occurred in New York in the last century. New York's highest court dealt with a case in which the plaintiff alleged that the defendant had deliberately done something to hurt him but the plaintiff failed to specify the category of the tort. The court held that when someone deliberately acts to injure another without justification "it is, prima facie, a tort." The court then looked to see which tort it was. But, by a little presto-chango syntactical transmutation, the quoted term morphed into "it is a prima facie tort"; again, a brand new tort having its own elements. I am not arguing that these were bad evolutions, just that by creating labels (in these cases by accident) we confer upon them peculiar attributes that give them a life quite beyond their descriptive function. But how can we avoid this? It seems to me that all we need to do is decline to put a label on our methodology. A scholar will normally specify the procedures and assumptions underlying his or her conclusions, so no necessary function is served by also labeling the approach as falling into one school of criticism or another. That sort of thing invites debates over whether the critic has fairly labeled his or her work and over what is and is not orthodox scholarship in the claimed school. That has nothing to do with the validity of the critical conclusion. In other words, as I said before, the debate degenerates into an academic disputation over what the critics are doing, not over what the criticized work did/does. It is not hard to avoid labeling. To illustrate -- and also to illustrate how labeling tends to put us at odds when we are not actually in disagreement -- I take as my text the passage from Macbeth which I discussed with Stephen Greenblatt at the Davidson conference. The porter offered an equivocator a place in Hell -- "here's an equivocator, that could swear in both the scales against either scale, who committed treason enough for God's sake, yet could not equivocate to heaven. O, come in equivocator." It seems clear to me that this passage refers to the Gunpowder Plot trials of 1606 and particularly the testimony of Fr. Garnet. However, in the years following the Monica Lewinsky affair it would call to an alert audience member's mind President Clinton's denial of having "sexual relations" with that woman. That statement was classic equivocation; Clinton would say that it was literally true (as he did not regard oral sex as "sexual relations") although the statement had the intent and effect of misleading its hearers. It is perfectly appropriate to point out this resonance of the porter's speech on a contemporary audience and perhaps even to make the point that equivocation is not a thing of the past. It is also entirely legitimate to note that a Jacobean audience would think of Fr. Garnet, not Bill Clinton. Notice that I could express both approaches without labeling ether. Both are correct; but labeling one approach as Presentist and the other as Historicist has an unfortunate tendency to invite a fruitless, and rather uninteresting, debate over which is a more valid approach. And, what's more, labeling tends to restrict a scholar's scope. A scholar noted for her fidelity to Presentism might feel reluctant to write about an interesting historical discovery she has made for fear that she will be accused of inconstancy and lose her Presentist cred. [5]+++++++++++++++ From: Louis Swilley <lswilley@houston.rr.com> Louis Swilley <lswilley@houston.rr.com> wrote, >Do Presentism and Historicism both ignore the fact that human >constants are expressed in the works, constants that make the >classics meaningful to us generation after generation? Those >constants - expressed so beautifully in great works - are >characters responding to challenges by following or ignoring >their consciences. These are not lost in the historical >circumstances in which they are expressed, nor are they >dependent upon changing factors in present-day experience. >However a play may produced to reflect a current problem - >Shakespeare in modern dress - the director and actors had >better be aware that the real "stuff" of any great play is the >"deep-down-diving, long-down-staying, mud-up-bringing" >matter of the characters' responses to moral challenges, >challenges and responses that remain the same for all >generations that were, that are and that will be, until we >can leap from the womb totally physically self-sufficient. >Only in those circumstances will our human nature change >to the degree that the conditions of conscience are altered >and that the human image in art is significantly changed. Hugh Grady commented, >Louis Swilley voices what was once a commonplace about >literary classics like Shakespeare, that they engage us in >"timeless" issues, especially moral ones. There are semantic >issues at work here as well, and connections between our >own cultural assumptions and those of the play's originating >moment, I don't doubt. To keep it short, my own view is that >the "timelessness" effect comes into play precisely when >something in the text resonates strongly with our own current >cultural concerns and that a review of the history of almost any >Shakespeare text will demonstrate how views on what ideas >are most "timeless" turn out to shift as we move through historical >change. _King Lear_, for example, was once considered a play in >which a few precious bits of poetry could be discovered in a junk >pile of "barbarous" excesses and egregious violations of poetic >justice. Nowadays it is held by many to be the most profound of >the tragedies. ============================================================= I should have made the point that the morality of a character's choices are *as he/she sees it*. As John Henry Newman points out, our individual consciences are "imperial," and it is essentially this individual estimate - right or wrong in external moral philosophical terms - and experience that forms the lasting, ever repeated, ever recognizable matter in great works. Our further judgment of the wisdom or foolishness of such moral views is another dimension - for example, I think Francis Macomber is a damned fool for insisting on "testing his courage" by facing a charging lion, but that is not what *he* thinks and *his* judgment of the matter, *his* posing of the challenge to himself becomes his central moral issue for him. I suppose it is possible to say that that *further judgment* is subject to the fits and starts of estimates by succeeding cultures and by individual readers, but the experience of conscience, however ill-formed from the perspective of one moral philosophy as opposed to another, is what we see and should see in all works, especially in great ones.( Incidentally, Lear's ill-conceived idea of splitting up the country as though it were his private property rather than his public responsibility is one of those cases where there has been little if any disagreement among critics of any historical period, and Lear's idea of it is universally accepted as both his honest but erroneous expression of his conscience *and* a disastrous move, morally/politically/philosophically conceived. Both of these estimates are repeated from age to age, and although there may be other aspects of the play's argument that are subject to interpretations inspired by the times, *these central ideas remain* and move us to return to the play, generation after generation. L. Swilley [6]++++++++++++++ From: Linda Anne Charnes <lcharnes@indiana.edu> I'd like to offer a few thoughts about the challenge to "define Presentism in twenty-five words or less." Presentism is not a methodology but rather a sensibility, one that always poses the following question: why should anyone care about this now? I would add two more words, for emphasis, between "why" and "should," to reach my twenty-five, but fear the Editor would decline to post my definition. As someone who has been writing in this vein since the term "presentist" was first flung about as a descriptive pejorative fifteen years odd ago, it's interesting to see Presentism emerge as yet another "ism." I don't think I've ever called myself a Presentist, but have had it thrust upon me. I don't shrug it off, but think that coinage suggests a methodological exclusivity, with clearly defined borders, that does not accurately describe what practitioners associated with the term actually do. Hawkes, Fernie, Grady, myself, and many others are certainly historicist insofar as we always run our claims through historical filtration: we always, as good scholars, ask if our arguments can also be supported by what we know about early modern history. Some of us are quite partial to using psychoanalysis as a tool; others are still deeply Marxist at heart. I would describe myself as a materialist psychoanalytic political theorist, but it's a real clunker as a label. Linda Charnes [7]++++++++++++++++ From: Alan Dessen <acdessen@email.unc.edu> As an old-style theatre historian (who nonetheless devotes much energy to today's productions of Shakespeare's plays) I have been following with interest the discussion of Presentism. Although the term itself is not part of my working vocabulary, many of the questions raised in the various posts are important to me. Rightly or wrongly I like to think of myself as one of those practitioners cited by David Evett who "make strenuous efforts (not necessarily successful) to become self-conscious about the elements in their own thinking that belong peculiarly to their own times and places." If (as with me) the goal is to recover or reconstruct the original theatrical practice, the historian must somehow transcend notions of theatre contemporary to today's readers and theatrical professionals but often alien to the 1590s and 1600s so as to unlearn what we know or think we know about how a play should or must work onstage (the absence then of anything comparable to our variable onstage illumination for night and darkness scenes remains the best example). Here is my rationale for obsessing over the stage directions that survive from the professional repertory theatre, for to build upon those signals as evidence is to stay within the realm of the possible: what was or could have been done in the original productions. I agree with Hugh Grady that there is little point in concentrating solely on the pejorative sense of Presentism whose proponents "denied historical difference and naively imposed their own concepts and rationality onto an understanding of the past," as opposed to "work based on the understanding that all our knowledge of the past, including that of Shakespeare's historical context, is shaped by the ideologies and discourses of our cultural present." I would prefer to believe that "Far from being an impediment to our knowledge, this understanding is its enabling foundation." Again, "simply assuming the worst about Presentism" leads nowhere, for I readily agree that "There is in fact no way to insulate any critical method from misuse or insure that it will not be employed by the shallow, the ignorant, or the malevolent." In response to Andrew Wilson's request, I will briefly cite three specific examples from my bailiwick, none of which may prove to be helpful or on target. First is what may be no more than a pet peeve: that commentators today when talking about the drama popular before Kyd, Marlowe, and Shakespeare regularly refer to "the medieval Vice." Yes, various vices and sins are prevalent throughout the well known fifteenth- and early sixteenth-century plays, but (to my knowledge) the earliest appearance of the Vice as the allegorical prime-mover of a play is found in the 1530s, and the biggest cluster of examples in extant plays is to be found in items from the 1560s and 1570s along with many allusions to this figure in the 1590s and thereafter (e.g., in Jonson's *The Devil Is an Ass* and *The Staple of News*). Perhaps in this case a distaste for allegorical and didactic effects in drama has trumped the actual evidence, though just as likely is a verdict (to borrow Hugh Grady's term) that a "shallow" shortcut has been invoked. My second example is a classic case for the theatre historian: the postulation of an "inner stage" at the Globe and comparable venues, a formulation that lasted for several generations and may be found even in some landmark studies (e.g., G. R. Reynolds' 1940 book on the Red Bull). Here I would invoke the opening paragraph of Bernard Beckerman's *Dynamics of Drama* (1970) that when we pick up a book containing the printed words of a Shakespeare play we simultaneously put on a pair of spectacles "compacted of preconceptions about what constitutes drama and how it produces its effects." In the case of the supposed "inner stage," those spectacles included assumptions about staging linked to the fourth wall convention that dominated much theatrical presentation up through the 1950s or later that in turn could easily be read back into a re-imagining of Globe dramaturgy. My third example (and here I fear I may be opening Pandora's box) is the notion of "character"-psychological realism-"inner life" frowned upon in some parts of the academic community but still alive and well in the classroom and among theatrical professionals. Here is an arena where Presentism and Historicism (and probably several other -isms) can go to it. Does it matter that the primary meaning (or meanings) of the term "character" then has little in common with its meaning or meanings today? When I was growing up, A. C. Bradley was at the center of Shakespeare interpretation, but now . . . ? Are the many Freudian and post-Freudian tools an "enabling foundation" or a blockage? I am not the right person to formulate the pros and cons, but this particular controversy (as opposed to rival approaches to *Troilus and Cressida*) might be a fruitful test case. Alan Dessen [8]+++++++++++++++ From: Hardy M. Cook <editor@shaksper.net> In the February 19, Roundtable digest <http://www.shaksper.net/archives/2007/0155.html>, Larry Weiss responded to my comments of the previous week: >I think Hardy makes my point for me when he observes in his reply >that "My remarks about the morphing of "New Historicism" are in >part my response to being unable to describe or to categorize the >methodology that Stephen Greenblatt used in his _Will in the World .... " > >Why is it necessary to categorize that methodology? Does a taxonomy >of critical techniques make any of them more or less valid? Do labels >add to the persuasiveness of any given approach? Or, in other words, >aren't we really just discussing what critics do, not what the authors did? He then added that >At the conference held at Davidson College last weekend, Stephen >Greenblatt and I had a brief colloquy about what I believe is a topical >allusion in Macbeth. . . . However, at no point did our entirely >civilized colloquy invoke labels. Did I adopt a classical Historicist >approach? (If I did, I would be as astounded as I was when I was first >told I was writing prose.) Was Greenblatt's skepticism a function of >New Historicism? Who cares? Would I be wrong and Greenblatt >correct to be skeptical if we decide that New Historicism is preferable >to a more traditional approach? Does the critical question cease to >be interesting if we all decide to be Presentists? Although efforts at labeling cannot encompass the complexity of a methodology, an approach, an ideology, and so on and although labels themselves are, at times, reductive and overly simplistic, I find, nevertheless, them useful, when their limitations are acknowledged. Labels can and do assist us (or at least me) in our (my) understanding and in our (my) ability to explain to others. For example, "New Criticism," a direct challenge to the theoretical assumptions of the "Old Historicism," represented its interpretations as being grounded in "Reality," in the "Universal Truth," in "Human Experience." I would quote exactly the language from some of the numerous essays exchanged between New Critics and Historicists, for those texts are at my office. Historicists argued that the author's intentions are the ONLY reliable determiner of the meaning expressed in an imaginative text and that understanding of the author's intentions is discernable from knowledge of the author's other works and of the literary, social, and historical milieu in which he lived and wrote. New Critics countered that all that is necessary to understand the meaning of a work is the work itself, an understanding achieved by close reading of the inseparable connection between the form and content of that text. New Criticism dominated literary studies for decades and decades. It was not until Structuralist analysis challenged and Deconstructive readings exposed the agenda of the New Critics - that what they argued was universal was, in fact, the belief system of those ensconced in positions of power: privileged men of European extraction. Yes, I use labels to help me explain the assumptions that underlie and drive critical methodologies. Stephen Greenblatt employed a methodology in his brilliant criticism of the early 1980s that came to be labeled "New Historicism" and that came to be widely adopted by others. In 2004, as "New Historicism" now known as "Historicism" appeared to be fading in influence, Greenblatt published _Will in the World_ using a methodology that I have difficulty identifying. Yes, I find labels useful. Trying to identify "critical techniques" does not "make any of them more or less valid," but employing them aids me in understanding the critical assumptions upon which they are based and thus to better understand the agendas underlying them. _______________________________________________________________ S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List Hardy M. Cook, editor@shaksper.net The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net> DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the editor assumes no responsibility for them.
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