SHAKSPER 2001: Re: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
From: Hardy M. Cook (editor@ws.bowiestate.edu)
Date: 06/11/01
- Next message: Hardy M. Cook: "Re: Which Potato"
- Previous message: Hardy M. Cook: "Re: Tragic Hero"
- Maybe in reply to: Hardy M. Cook: "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names"
- Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ]
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 12.1439 Monday, 11 June 2001
[1] From: Steve Sohmer <DRSOHMER@aol.com>
Date: Friday, 8 Jun 2001 11:18:40 EDT
Subj: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
[2] From: Mette Mølgaard Hansen <engmmh@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, 08 Jun 2001 15:45:00 -0000
Subj: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
[3] From: Steve Roth <steve@steve-roth.com>
Date: Saturday, 9 Jun 2001 01:30:37 +0200
Subj: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
[4] From: Richard Gyde <rgyde@world-net.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 11:46:22 +1200
Subj: re: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
[5] From: Arthur D L Lindley <elllindl@leonis.nus.edu.sg>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:50:18 +0800
Subj: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
[6] From: John Velz <jvelz@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Date: Friday 08 Jun 2001 22:09:07 0500
Subj: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
[7] From: Paul E. Doniger <pdoniger@snet.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 00:12:23 -0400
Subj: Fw: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Na
[8] From: Brian Haylett <haylett@bigfoot.com>
Date: Saturday, 09 Jun 2001 17:48:50 +0100
Subj: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Nam
[9] From: Lene Petersen <lenethedane@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:49:38 -0000
Subj: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
[10] From: Pervez Rizvi <Pervez.Rizvi@capgemini.co.uk>
Date: Sunday, 10 Jun 2001 21:09:24 +0100
Subj: RE: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Sohmer <DRSOHMER@aol.com>
Date: Friday, 8 Jun 2001 11:18:40 EDT
Subject: 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Comment: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Dear Friends,
I'm sure Shakespeare had a look at the Danes when they were at court in
1588. In the 16th century there were fellas by these names at school in
Wittenberg, too. These were old, established noble Danish family, and
not likely of Jewish descent. Rosens, yes. Krantzes, yes. Sterns, yes.
And even Gildas. But these folks, I don't think so.
Hope this helps.
Steve
[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mette Mølgaard Hansen <engmmh@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, 08 Jun 2001 15:45:00 -0000
Subject: 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Comment: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Rosecrantz and Guildenstern could, indeed, seem to be Jewish names, but
they are not. Nor are they 'normal' Danish names. They are anglified
versions of the names of the very eminent Danish noble families of
'Rosencrantz' and 'Gyldenstjerne'. The senior members of these families
held almost permanent places at the Danish council of the realm
(equivalent of the privy council in England) throughout the middle ages
and for some time after. It is entirely plausible, therefore, that
junior members should have been ambassadors to various courts of Europe.
Incidentally, one member of a cadet branch of the Gyldenstjerne family,
Sir Andrew Ogard (after the family estate Aagaard in Jutland) emigrated
to England, participated in the Hundred Years' War, was knighted by, I
think, Henry V, and became the forefather of Rider Haggard.
Mette M Hansen
[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Roth <steve@steve-roth.com>
Date: Saturday, 9 Jun 2001 01:30:37 +0200
Subject: 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Comment: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
> the names of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
Good discussion re: R&G's names is in Peter Usher's articles on Hamlet
and the Infinite Universe, in which he points out that the names are
attached to the family crests in Tycho Brahe's portrait, four copies of
which he sent to Thomas Savile in England, asking that he be remembered
to Thomas Digges and John Dee:
http://www.research.psu.edu/rps/sep97/hamlet.html
http://www.elizreview.com/articles/usher.htm
My compressed report of one portion of Usher's article:
...a portrait of himself that included his family shields labeled with
the names of his great-great-grandparents: Sophie Gyldenstierne and Eric
Rosenkrantz. Brahe was at the time constructing his observatory,
Uraniborg, near Helsingor Castle [Elsinore], which was under
construction by the King of Denmark.
Darned interesting article, by my lights.
Related material on Shakespeare's connection to Digges (and hence how he
might well have seen the Brahe portrait) in Leslie Hotson's book, I,
William Shakespeare, do appoint Thomas Russell, Esquire. Less
speculative and more convincing than some of his other works.
Someone has also shown (can't remember where right off) that R&G were in
the student rolls at Wittenberg in the late 1500s.
Steve
http://princehamlet.com
[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Richard Gyde <rgyde@world-net.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 11:46:22 +1200
Subject: re: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
A good explanation was provided by Harold Jenkins, editor of the Arden
edition of Hamlet (p. 422 - 423). He thought the names were chosen
probably because they are particularly Danish in their associations,
they being common names in that country at that time. Denmark has never
been noted as a centre for the Jewish race. Jenkins also mentions an
engraved portrait made in 1586 of the Danish astronomer, Tycho Brahe,
which "surrounds him with the coats-of-arms of sixteen families from
which he is descended, including 'Guldesteren' and 'Rosenkrans' ". It is
possible that Shakespeare may have seen this engraving.
Best wishes,
Richard Gyde
[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Arthur D L Lindley <elllindl@leonis.nus.edu.sg>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:50:18 +0800
Subject: 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Comment: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Since Rosenkrantz is German for rosary, I think we can discard this
possibility, unless Florence Amit wants to take it up.
Arthur Lindley
[6]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Velz <jvelz@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Date: Friday 08 Jun 2001 22:09:07 0500
Subject: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
The names are not Danish but German. A Rosenkranz is a garland or
wreath of roses in German and in Bayern (Bavaria) where I used to live
some lucky parishes have hanging in the chancel a Maria im Rosenkranz, a
wooden carving usually pine of the Madonna standing inside an
elaborately carved wreath of roses also of the same pine. The
workmanship is exemplary in these. Tilman Riemenschneider the quondam
mayor of Wuerzburg was one of the greatest wood carvers in Germany then
or since. His workmanship is fabled. His Apostles and Saints and Adam
and Eve are famous and are presently housed in the Mainfrankisches
Museum in the old Festung Marienberg that overlooks Wuerzburg across the
Main River. He is the reputed artisan in some of these Rosenkranzen.
Guildenstern is also German; Stern is star and Guild is probably from
Geld or Gold but I will abide correction on that one. the names may
have been given to Jewish people at one time or another, but I believe
that Gentiles have had both names.
Germany and Denmark have had intercultural relations at various times.
But there is no reason for R. and G. to be Danes, is there? Do I not
remember that they were his schoolfellows at University in Germany?
They might easily be Germans. I remember once traveling in Denmark in a
car with WÜ plates on it for WÜrzburg and being startled to be
addressed in German with the standard greeting in Bayern, Grüss' Gott by
a young woman who saw me standing by the car, obviously from somewhere
in Bayern.
Greetings from Denmark or Germany,
John
[7]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Paul E. Doniger <pdoniger@snet.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 00:12:23 -0400
Subject: 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Comment: Fw: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
According to the Variorum, which is quoting from _Notes & Queries_ of
August 1871, there was an ambassador named Rosencrantz at the ascension
of James I. Is there any more recent scholarship?
Paul E. Doniger
[8]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Brian Haylett <haylett@bigfoot.com>
Date: Saturday, 09 Jun 2001 17:48:50 +0100
Subject: 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Comment: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Charles Boyce, in his Encyclopedia of Shakespeare says:
"G and R were notable Danish family names of the 16th century; it is
recorded that at the Danish royal coronation of 1596, fully one-tenth of
the aristocratic participants bore one name or the other. Moreover,
several students of each name were enrolled in the university at
Wittenberg ... in the 1590s."
F.E.Halliday, in A Shakespeare Companion, says much the same: well-known
Danish families and in the records of Wittenberg.
Neither gives sources; nor can I for the certainty that I read years ago
that people with those names visited England in Shakespeare's younger
days - probably part of an embassy.
Brian Haylett
[9]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lene Petersen <lenethedane@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:49:38 -0000
Subject: 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Comment: Re: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Though Rosencrantz and Guildenstern may have Jewish connotations and be
Jewish names too, they are similarly Renaissance Danish nobly names in
the following spellings 'Rosenkrands' and 'Gyldenstjerne', meaning, as
is easily guessed 'a wreath of roses' and 'golden star'... Many
nobility names including gylden i.e. golden would imply a name given to
an illegitimate royal male child. Thus the name Gyldenløve (Golden
Lion)figures next to Gyldenstjerne in the Danish calendar of nobility,
Gyldenløve being a recognised (bastard) side line of the royal Danish
family.
[10]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pervez Rizvi <Pervez.Rizvi@capgemini.co.uk>
Date: Sunday, 10 Jun 2001 21:09:24 +0100
Subject: 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
Comment: RE: SHK 12.1425 Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names
>However, one student suggested that Rosencrantz and Guildenstern seemed
>to him to be Jewish names.
Your student is not the first to notice. There was an episode of 'The
Rockford Files' (the 1970s detective show starring James Garner)
entitled 'Rosendahl and Gilda Stern are dead'. If you think I'm making
this up, check out the episode guide
(http://www.thesandbox.net/arm/rockford/episode_guide/season5.shtml).
I might mention in passing that I have started work on a treatise that
will prove that the works of 'Shakespeare' were in fact written by an
Arab nobleman called Sheikh Speer, who started his career holding camels
outside the desert playtents. I'll inform you when it's ready for
publication. You're welcome.
_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, editor@ws.bowiestate.edu
The S H A K S P E R Webpage <http://ws.bowiestate.edu>
- Next message: Hardy M. Cook: "Re: Which Potato"
- Previous message: Hardy M. Cook: "Re: Tragic Hero"
- Maybe in reply to: Hardy M. Cook: "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Names"
- Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ]
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |