SHAKSPER 2001: Re: Nay, very pale.

From: Hardy M. Cook (editor@ws.bowiestate.edu)
Date: 03/30/01 

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 12.0724  Friday, 30 March 2001

[1]     From:   Sean Lawrence <seanlawrence@writeme.com>
        Date:   Saturday, 24 Mar 2001 11:06:38 -0800
        Subj:   Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.

[2]     From:   Steve Roth <steve@steve-roth.com>
        Date:   Saturday, 24 Mar 2001 11:10:08 -0800
        Subj:   Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.

[3]     From:   L. Swilley <lcsswill@pdq.net>
        Date:   Saturday, 24 Mar 2001 13:24:08 -0600
        Subj:   Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.

[4]     From:   Carol Barton <cbartonphd@earthlink.net>
        Date:   Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:05:16 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.

[5]     From:   Karen Peterson-Kranz <kpetersonkranz@yahoo.com>
        Date:   Sunday, 25 Mar 2001 03:57:44 -0800 (PST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Sean Lawrence <seanlawrence@writeme.com>
Date:           Saturday, 24 Mar 2001 11:06:38 -0800
Subject: 12.0707 Nay, very pale.
Comment:        Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.

One possibility is that this comment doesn't physiologically describe
the colour of ghosts, but of the humours.  Another explanation (more
likely, in my mind) is that Hamlet is suggesting a wrong response for
Horatio, that his father is flush when he was actually pale, much as he
suggests what seems to be the wrong colour for Hamlet senior's beard, or
tries to catch Horatio in a lie with the line "then saw you not his
face".

Cheers,
Seán.

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Steve Roth <steve@steve-roth.com>
Date:           Saturday, 24 Mar 2001 11:10:08 -0800
Subject: 12.0707 Nay, very pale.
Comment:        Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.

>For a long time I have wondered about the significance of Horatio's
>response to Hamlet that the "countenance" of the Ghost was "very pale"

I don't have an answer, but I do have a source reference (which I'm
thinking you've probably already seen...?).

Lavater, Lewes. Of ghostes and spirites walking by nyght (1572)

There's an excerpt here:
http://hamlet.hypermart.net/ghosts.html

And here's the University of Washington Library's full reference to the
1929 edition edited by Dover Wilson:
http://catalog.lib.washington.edu/search/tof+ghosts+and+spirits/tof+ghosts+and+spirits/-6,0,0,B/frameset&F=tof+ghostes+and+spirites+walking+by+nyght+1572&1,1

Steve Roth
princehamlet.com

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           L. Swilley <lcsswill@pdq.net>
Date:           Saturday, 24 Mar 2001 13:24:08 -0600
Subject: 12.0707 Nay, very pale.
Comment:        Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.

Jack Hettinger wrote,

"Walter McGee in The Elizabethan Hamlet (1987) claims that pale is the
color of an infernal ghost (p. 133) but does not seem to document this
claim, etc."

Would it help Mr. Hettinger to investigate this matter in the
traditional  make-up of the characters in classical Kabuki?  In that
theater, heroes and Villians - and ghosts - are instantly recognized as
such by their distinctive, "signature" make-up.  Comparative Literature
studies show other similarities between the literatures of the East and
West; perhaps, then, in this, too--?

        L. Swilley

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Carol Barton <cbartonphd@earthlink.net>
Date:           Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:05:16 -0500
Subject: 12.0707 Nay, very pale.
Comment:        Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.

In response to the (abridged) post below:

Dunno if someone can anthropomorphize human ectoplasm, Jack, but I think
that -- or something like it -- is what's going on, here. If the Ghost
were alive, and angry, his face would be red (capillaries just bursting
with bloody fire). If he were terribly, terribly sad (as one might
expect him to be, mourning his own death and purgation, plus the
treachery of his brother and the infidelity of his queen), he would look
wan and pale -- why should there be more to it than that?

Hope that helps, at least . . .

Carol Barton

> For a long time I have wondered about the significance of Horatio's
> response to Hamlet that the "countenance" of the Ghost was "very pale"
> (1.2.236: Bevington).
>
> Hamlet: What looked he, frowningly?
> Horatio: A countenance more in sorrow than in anger.
> Hamlet: Pale or red?
> Horation: Nay, very pale.

[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Karen Peterson-Kranz <kpetersonkranz@yahoo.com>
Date:           Sunday, 25 Mar 2001 03:57:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 12.0707 Nay, very pale.
Comment:        Re: SHK 12.0707 Nay, very pale.

Jack Hettinger asks about the following exchange about the Ghost:

> Hamlet: What looked he, frowningly?
> Horatio: A countenance more in sorrow than in anger.
> Hamlet: Pale or red?
> Horation: Nay, very pale.

My guess is that this has less to do with determining the exact
character of an entity assumed to be supernatural, and more to do with
whether this "apparition" is supernatural at all.  If the countenance of
the "ghost" was "red," would it not suggest to Hamlet a hoax of some
kind?

I'm not sure whether this is relevant or not, but perhaps we should also
remember that Shakespeare occasionally used the word "ghost" to refer to
a corpse.  For example, in 2 Henry VI, Warwick looks at Gloucester's
body, searching for cause of death.  "Ghost" here signifies a dead body,
and paleness is a sign of death:

"See how the blood is settled in his face.
Oft have I seen a timely-parted ghost,
Of ashy semblance, meagre, pale and bloodless,
Being all descended to the labouring heart;
Who, in the conflict that it holds with death,
Attracts the same for aidance 'gainst the enemy;
Which with the heart there cools and ne'er returneth
To blush and beautify the cheek again.
But see, his face is black and full of blood,
His eye-balls further out than when he lived,
Staring full ghastly like a strangled man"
(III.ii.160)

For what it's worth...

Cheers,
Karen E. Peterson
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