SHAKSPER 2000: Re: Despair and Pride

From: Hardy M. Cook (editor@ws.bowiestate.edu)
Date: 01/19/00 

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 11.0111  Wednesday, 19 January 2000.

[1]     From:   Marti Markus <martim@balcab.ch>
        Date:   Monday, 17 Jan 2000 17:50:54 +0100
        Subj:   Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride

[2]     From:   L. Swilley <lcsswill@pdq.net>
        Date:   Monday, 17 Jan 2000 12:57:32 -0600
        Subj:   Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride

[3]     From:   Carol Barton <Cbartonb@aol.com>
        Date:   Monday, 17 Jan 2000 23:28:21 EST
        Subj:   Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride

[4]     From:   Ed Taft <TAFT@MARSHALL.EDU>
        Date:   Tuesday, 18 Jan 2000 08:44:48 -0500 (EST)
        Subj:   Despair and Pride

[5]     From:   Jim Lusardi <lusardij@mail.lafayette.edu>
        Date:   Tuesday, 18 Jan 2000 13:29:56 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride

[6]     From:   Karen Peterson-Kranz <tlb@kuentos.guam.net>
        Date:   Wednesday, 19 Jan 2000 08:36:50 +1000
        Subj:   Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Marti Markus <martim@balcab.ch>
Date:           Monday, 17 Jan 2000 17:50:54 +0100
Subject: 11.0102 Despair and Pride
Comment:        Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride

> I've been going batty trying to find a reference to the idea that
> despair is considered a form of pride, theologically.  I seem to recall
> reading this in a piece of Marlowe criticism, some time ago.

Maybe you can find something suitable in the context of "Lucifer and the
fall of the angels"? Despair follows pride there, of course, but maybe
that makes the two inseparable, theologically? (The story seems to be
somewhere in Isaiah, around 14/15, and not, as I would have guessed, in
Genesis). Perhaps the story of Job might lead to some results, too -
something like: the person in despair thinks (or rather: knows) that god
is unable to help and is therefore - if at all - not more "mighty" than
ourselves, which, in the eyes of a believer, could be seen as a form of
pride...

Is there some pond, valley, sea or mountain of despair in Bunyan? I am
too lazy to look that up, but you might find some references there, too.

Cheers,
Markus Marti

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           L. Swilley <lcsswill@pdq.net>
Date:           Monday, 17 Jan 2000 12:57:32 -0600
Subject: 11.0102 Despair and Pride
Comment:        Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride

Since despair is the loss of hope in God's mercy, it seems most
appropriate that it should be related to pride, inasmuch as it suggests
that the despairing person presumes to know the future better than God.
Thomas Aquinas discusses despair in his Summa Theologica, and although
he does not relate it directly to pride - at least that I can find in a
cursory review of the question there - the inference I have made above
appears  to be consistent with Thomas's remarks.  Beyond this, ALL sins
have their source, ultimately, in pride, since  in all sins the sinner
places his will above God's.

         L. Swilley

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Carol Barton <Cbartonb@aol.com>
Date:           Monday, 17 Jan 2000 23:28:21 EST
Subject: 11.0102 Despair and Pride
Comment:        Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride

Seán Lawrence muses,

>I've been going batty trying to find a reference to the idea that
>despair is considered a form of pride, theologically.  I seem to recall
>reading this in a piece of Marlowe criticism, some time ago.

I can't give you a source, either, Seán, without more digging than I
have time to do, but the idea is this: despair precludes the hope of
salvation, and therefore denies the omnipotence of God and His grace.
That-being incapable of God's grace-is a sin worthy of Satan himself,
for it is Satan's pride that hardens his heart against mercy, and
prevents for all eternity his salvation.

Carol Barton

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Ed Taft <TAFT@MARSHALL.EDU>
Date:           Tuesday, 18 Jan 2000 08:44:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject:        Despair and Pride

Sean Lawrence wonders if, theologically, despair might be a kind of
pride. I have no theological reference to offer, but his query is
suggestive. Despair is the one unpardonable sin-unpardonable because the
person in despair is so hopeless that he/she cannot bring him/herself to
ask for pardon from God. In other words, the sinner feels that he or she
cannot possibly be worth pardon.

At first glance, this feeling might seem the opposite of pride, but one
might argue that the sinner feels that his or her sins are so special,
so extraordinary as to rise beyond the level even of a pardon from God.
That might be a form of concealed vanity or pride. Such a conclusion is
not beyond the pale for theologians who often saw/see pride "as the root
of all evil."

--Ed Taft

[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Jim Lusardi <lusardij@mail.lafayette.edu>
Date:           Tuesday, 18 Jan 2000 13:29:56 -0500
Subject: 11.0102 Despair and Pride
Comment:        Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride

Dear Sean:

See Douglas Cole, Suffering and Evil in the Plays of Christopher
Marlowe, Princeton:  Princeton UP, 1962--esp. on Doctor Faustus.

Yours--Jim Lusardi, Shakespeare Bulletin

[6]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Karen Peterson-Kranz <tlb@kuentos.guam.net>
Date:           Wednesday, 19 Jan 2000 08:36:50 +1000
Subject: 11.0102 Despair and Pride
Comment:        Re: SHK 11.0102 Despair and Pride

Hi, Sean,

Well, I find myself thinking of something that is probably way too
obvious, but, here goes...you might want to check the Catholic
Catechism.  I don't have a copy at hand (shame on me!) but if I recall
correctly, the two "sins against the Holy Spirit," the only sins for
which forgiveness may not be readily forthcoming are...you guessed it,
pride and despair.  In this context, pride would be either feeling so
pleased with one's own righteousness that one assumes that it is not
necessary to ask for forgiveness; despair is believing that one's sins
are so great that they are beyond the ability of God to forgive.  The
latter is a kind of grandiosity, making it the flip side of more
conventional pride.

This is probably not at all the kind of reference you're looking for,
but for what it's worth...

Cheers,
Karen Peterson-Kranz


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